Talk:Steven Rogers (Earth-616)
Captain America's Physical Strength By Brian Schott Many thanks to the Webmaster for participating in this interview focused on Captain America! For more on Captain America click here to visit the Captain America: Living Legend Web Site. Super Solider? Human at peak condition? Ordinary Joe? Just what is Cap's current strength level these days? I don't think Cap has ever been an ordinary Joe, though a lot of times he gives that impression, especially in the Avengers, where's he's been known to say stuff like "I don't have powers like the rest of you". And while it's true he's no Iron Man or Thor in terms of the might he brings to the table, he's definitely better than us normal folks can be. Cap's been billed as being the "peak of human potential", but does "peak" mean something us humans can achieve now or something that will take us 100 years to develop? Personally, I don't think the government invested in a Super-Soldier program so they could create soldiers that regular people could be if they tried hard enough. Especially if you consider that Cap is "peak" in every aspect of the human body. If you break down what we humans can do, such as strength, dexterity, endurance, good looks (heh) Cap is in top from in all of these areas. So at the lowest level, maybe humans could achieve one of these aspects. Maybe someone could work out with weights enough to be as strong as Cap, but if you've ever seen an Olympic weight lifter, you know that guy isn't going to be near as agile as Cap. Likewise, a guy conditioned to compete in the 100 yard dash isn't going to have the body needed to lift record breaking weights. Cap's does. That's his "power" in my book. His body allows him to win every gold metal event. Now whether, as stated above, these specific aspects could be achieved by a normal person, I'm not sure. It's hard to say in the Marvel Universe, when guys like Daredevil, who have no strength augmentation, are pushing cars over. I guess the human bar is a bit higher in the comic world. But (to get to the point of your question), I think Cap can lift about 2-ish tons. There are plenty examples of his super strength. He stood casually as two motorcycles tied to his wrists tried pulling him in opposite directions, in CAP #259. He was bench pressing weights with a digital readout of "1,100" while chewing the fat with D-Man. He's snapped guns, ropes, chains and even an anchor chain on a battle ship. In AVENGERS #170, after the Scarlet Witch tells Cap he's been screwing up the team, he goes on a workout spree, some of which involved holding himself, arms extended, upside on the rings, only to follow that by curling 500lbs weights. I'd say he's got super-strength. It's just not as noticeable when you're on the same team as gods. My personal research (Comics and roleplaying games) Cap picked up Thors hammer with seemingly no effort and handed it to him. Now then in order to even pick Thors hammer the requirements is: (in roleplaying termnology)Only one who is worthy may lift Mijolnir. The wielder (other than Thor) must have 1000+ Karma, Remarkable 30 Strength Which is a 1 ton requirment and positive Popularity. A non-living object must have at least Remarkable Strength to lift Mjolnir. Ill give another example in comic issue # 402 title: Man and Wolf (part 1 of 6), page 4 top panel Cap is having a conversation with D-Man while bench pressing 1,100 lbs, another example, The Gamer’s Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Abomination thru Dreadnought page 130 copy write 1988 has Cap listed as Rm (30), Another example Marvel Super Heroes Expert Edition Volume #1 A thru M copy write Jan 13 1999 has Cap listed as Rm (30), Another example Marvel Universe Roleplaying game book the copy write date is 2003, they have Caps strength listed as 4 which is broken down into weight terms as in the difficulty chart on page # 80 is 1,000 lbs – up to 2 tons. Roleplaying stats aren't relevant when it comes to determining his strength in terms of an article like this. According to Marvel, he can lift a maximum of 800 lbs. Now, common sense would suggest that after years of working out that Cap can lift more than 800 lbs by now. However, until Marvel says otherwise, that's what his official level of strength is. Marvel also measures a character's physical strength by how much he/she can lift above his/her head with their arms fully extended and not by how much weight they can bench. A person can almost always bench press more weight than they can lift over his/her head. For instance, if a person can bench 300 lbs, they can lift about two-thirds of that weight above their head, which would be 200 lbs in this case. So, if that holds true for Captain America, his maximum bench press would be somewhere around 1,200 lbs, which would fit in with him working out with 1,100 lbs. Cap being able to lift Thor's hammer had nothing to do with strength. There's was an enchantment placed on Mjolnir by Odin stating that only the most worthy are able to lift the hammer. It's got something to do with that person's strength of character, purity of heart, and things of that nature. Jack Hammer 02:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC) :Come on guys, let's not go back and forth here. I have personally seen the image cited above for Captain America benchpressing 1100 lbs. (In fact, I found it here on the database...) :I know this isn't exactly what Marvel's handbooks have always gone by, but it should indicate that 800 lbs shouldn't be unreasonable. :Before we change the article again, can we please talk about it here until we reach a concensus? :Cheers, :--JamieHari 14:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC) ::I think we should put both for strength, to some story-continuity is more important then hand-books. Either that or just remove both and just use the term peak of human potential for all his stats and leave it up to the reader's imagination? :::Missing data is certainly better than incorrect data, not that I am saying the info we have is wrong... :::--JamieHari 15:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC) :::: What missing data?Sage99 16:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC) ::::: "Either that or just remove both and just use the term peak of human potential for all his stats and leave it up to the reader's imagination" ... :::::--JamieHari 17:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC) ::As I stated earlier, how much weight a character can bench press, in the Marvel Universe, is irrelevant. Marvel Comics measures the strength of their characters by how much weight they can lift over their heads, not by how much they can bench press. They're two completely different lifts. Marvel has stated that Cap can lift a maximum of 800 lbs over his head. This really isn't open to interpretation. The reason Marvel came out with the OHOTMU is to provide information to questions like "how much can so and so lift"? so we can't ignore how it chooses to categorize certain aspects of a characters abilities just because we might not agree with it. Jack Hammer 19:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC) :::While I agree that OHotMU is very concise in this regard, that doesn't mean that the other information is irrelevant. For instance, because Mr. Example's hair is naturally blond, doesn't mean that we can't also state in his article that he always keeps his hair dyed green. Furthermore, there have been countless examples of our beloved handbooks being inconsistant with canon data. This doesn't mean either are 'wrong', but usually the handbooks take precedence and the situation in the storyline can be 'an exceptional case'. :::In my opinion, we could list his strength as 800 lbs, noting that it refers to 'overhead press' and further down the article, in the 'Notes' section, we could certainly state that he has been shown to be able to 'benchpress' 1100 lbs. (With a link to the image above) :::Would this solution satisfy both points of view? :::--JamieHari 19:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC) ::::Sounds good you don't have to link it though just title/number of issue is suffice imo. Also I have the handbooks and it does not say with supreme effort on the one's that I'm looking at for 800 lbs.Sage99 :::: Also for exceeding Cap has ripped steel off a tractor in Cap v1 #339 , to throw his shield to hit a missile in Cap v3 #27, dent pure steel in Cap Medussa effect, pulled a supply truck through the desert with a broken axil in Dead Man Running, to hold up a portion of a sky-scrapper in Cap v3 10, to hold up tons of steel/concrete in Cap v1 #229.Sage99 :::I remember reading he was able to lift a maximum of 800 lbs with supreme effort. It might have been in an older edition of the OHOTMU. I'm not trying to start a big debate, but it simply seems that personal viewpoints are being inserted when it comes to Cap's strength. You keep insisting that him being able to bench press 1,100 lbs is an indicator of his strength to the point that it overshadows Marvel's official position on the subject and it simply shouldn't be. Marvel doesn't use the bench press to determine character strength, so why shouldn't it be the same here? The character is their property, they can pretty much do whatever they wish to him in every measurable aspect. They come up with the information and they put it out when they've got everything lined up just how they want it. It's the views and interpretations of Marvel that count. Otherwise, this is just another fan site. Jack Hammer 00:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC) ::::Nope checked it there's no supreme effort. Its an idicator for strength the 1100 in bench it does not mean it cannot be referenced. Yes marvel count thats why that feat is allowed. You act like only handbook feats references count, which is not the case for here. As you say marvel sets the standards which are the books. ::::Sage99 :::::I am really disappointed that you both edited the article again without yet reaching an agreement. :::::Let me clarify some things for you: :::::# Although this is a fan-site, this is not just another fan-site. It is THE largest in the world, and I believe the best. There is a reason for that; We have a great crew of dedicated community members that are willing to work hard and put opinions and hearsay aside. Please remember not to add your own thoughts into the articles, BUT you certainly are encouraged to add your own flare in wording the facts the way you think sounds best. (As long as the fact isn't miscommunicated.) :::::# If it is canon, it counts. Unless it is ret-conned, in which case it should be moved from the body of the main article to a 'Note' or 'Trivia', or altogether. :::::# Please remember, we have no upper limit of how much space we have on this database, don't try to save hard drive sectors on my behalf. Fill every article with as MUCH (correct) information as possible. Even if that means putting it in the 'Notes' section and stating it is 'unconfirmed', etc. :::::# Back-and-forth wars (aka revert wars) are not welcome here. We have way too much work left to be done to deal with these issues. Let's be mature and 'professional' about this. We should discuss this until we find something that works for the majority of the people. ::::: A final note, revert wars have resulted in ''locked pages''. I would really hate to do that again. It prevents other unrelated contributions from taking place. Can you both agree it is best to work together? ::::: I thank you both for taking the time to read my (long) rant. Cheers guys... ::::: --JamieHari 02:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC) ::I agree with you and both types of references should be allowed, I actually did not delete the 800 lbs no more and want both there. The other poster keeps deleting the other cannon source.Sage99 I'm fine with adding the 1,100 lb bench press incident in the Notes section because it's emphasis isn't being placed ahead Marvel's official position on how they measure strength and the amount of weight he is capable of lifting. However, I do have objections with trying to slip it into the section regarding the brief description of Cap's peak human level strength. All that does is use info from a lift that isn't Marvel's official position and imposing that lift above Marvel's position. That's what led to this little edit war to begin with. Jack Hammer 00:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC) :Aren't we placing to much emphasis on what Marvel chooses to include in the handbooks and not considering that this information is still canonized, as per another published comic? :I do also agree that we don't need it up in the strength section, but the formatting of OUR pages on OUR website is dictated by how WE decide, not Marvel. Just because we loosely based our format on the handbooks doesn't mean we can't stray now and again... Just something to think about. :--JamieHari 01:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Not at all. If anything, Marvel's view is really all that should matter. If Cap would've been overhead pressing 1,100lbs, then I'd probably be somewhat more inclined to agree since that's how they choose to measure a character's strength. This might be OUR website but it's comprised of information from characters that AREN'T ours. If the point is to include accurate information on the characters, then the info should be what's official rather than our own opinions. Jack Hammer 00:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC) :Yes, but you have misstated a major aspect of all this: This isn't our opinion. We have a canon reference that proves he can bench press 1100. Like Wikipedia, who 'owns' none of the data in its pages, we have free reign to organize it how we feel best suits our readers. :I am going to pull the EiC card on this one. The article will maintain the information about Cap benching 1100 in the notes section. The strength section will state 800 lbs, for an overhead press. :I think this compromise suits both sides of this as best as possible. The information is there, but not featured in such a way as to contradict Marvel's handbooks. :Fair? :--JamieHari 01:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC) :It's a fair compromise. I had no problem using the 1,100lbs bench press incident in the notes section because it helps to back up Cap being able to lift 800lbs above his head, since most people can typically military press 2/3 of their max bench weight. What got stuck in my craw was the bench stat superceding the overhead press stat because Marvel doesn't use bench to measure how strong a character is. The 1,100lbs bench press uses some real world common sense since it backs up the 800lbs overhead press stat nicely. Whether fictional or real, virtually everyone can bench press more weight than they can lift over their head. Jack Hammer 01:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC) Added some cannon story-continuity featsSage99 Scientific Genius of Cap Whoever put this Quote:Captain America's exceptional ability as a tactical commander. He is not on par with scientific geniuses like Reed Richards, Magneto (Magnus), Iron Man (Tony Stark), Beast (Hank McCoy), or similar luminaries.:End Quote. Its silly even to mention this. Cap has enhanced intelligence and has used it in the fields of combat/warfare-strategy/weapons. It does not mean if he did not focus in science he could not be something great in Science. Unless you have a source the the SSS mind enhancement does not work for science and other areas, otherwise its just your opinion. Sage99 :While I agree the quote could (should) be reworded, just becuase someone doesn't have a citation proving this statement is false, doesn't then mean that the statement is true. Personally, I am very sure that Captain America generally smart guy, on and off the battlefied. He is not, however, close to the calibre of intelligence as Reed Richards. Reed understands concepts foreign to even OTHER brilliant minds, scientific or otherwise. I don't need a single source for that, since pretty much every comic he is in, he proves it. :Although, I bet there are a few examples regarding either the ulitmate nullifier or other Galactus related hardware. :I will let the statement remain, but maybe it should be reworded a bit. :--Jamie 14:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC) ::: No one is saying he is at the calibre of Reed. The person that put that quote is making the comparison. For all we know if Cap used his enhanced mind soley in the dedication to technology he could be on par with Tony Starks in robotics or even Bruce Banner in gamma radiation. By this logic I could voice in such opinion. That portion should be removed in my opinion and just leave it at that since its just speculation. Caps enhanced human mind has only been used in the field of combat-weapons/martial arts/warfare strategy etc etc. Point is we don't know how advanced he would be in other fields when dedicated to that. Thus is a pointless comparison in my opinion. Even Bruce Banner is smarter then Reeds in the area fields in Gamma Radiation.Sage99 ::::I need to humbly disagree with Sage99. Caps enhanced mental abilities relate to speed, not intelligence level. He's able to quickly formulate sound tactical plans, and thats the *only example of improved mental performance* we have ever seen from Cap. I'm afraid we'll need to see a citation otherwise to even consider the opposite - claiming Cap has genius level intelligence is patently false as far as I can determine. --Squirrelloid 20:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC) :::::I agree. This is something that just doesn't fit with Captain America. It's a subject debated in the Cap article on Wikipedia.com, occassionally. When I hear something like peak human intelligence, that sounds like someone whose intellect is at the pinnacle of human capability and that doesn't apply to Captain America.Jack Hammer 01:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC) :::::: I disagree since it does apply and Wiki has accepted it because of the references. In the official hand-book master edition vol 3 #2 it states intellegence is at Peak Human. In Young-Men #24 the Doctor that gave the serume to Steve stated it enhanced his intellect to a Supernormal degree. Plus in many of the orgins it states Cap will be a terror because of his enhanced mind and body. During the huge Kang battle it states Captain America mastered a futuristic fighting style in his first trial, while other warriors would take decades to do so. To other feats as well. Sage99 19:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC) ::::::: How do those statements not agree with what I said - that Cap's mental enhancement relates not to his intelligence but to his thought-process speed? If it was intelligence he'd be a Reed Richards or a Henry Pym. On Marvel's 1-7 intelligence scale Cap is somewhere around a 4 (Reed is a 7, the scale is logarithmic). --Squirrelloid 19:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC) ::::::::The creator of the Serum stated intelligence enhanced not just thought-process. My point hand-book states intelligene is peak-human it does not mention a reference on just thought-process speed. Reed intellect is above peak-human for the category that he's in. Cap's intellect is enhanced is my point for the fields in what he uses it for anyway. If Reed is above peak-human intellect then so be it. But the references still stand that Cap's intellect is "enhanced" just not too Reed's level not many people are Reed's level, comparing it too Reed is irrelevant.Sage99 20:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC) :::::::::Reed is Peak human intelligence. Other people at or near Reed's level that I can think of off the top of my head (obviously, Reed is the smartest person in the Marvel Universe on Earth, but these people are at least in the ballpark): Beast (Hank McCoy), Moira MacTaggert, Henry Pym, Tony Stark. The point being - Cap isn't even playing the same ballgame. --Squirrelloid 20:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC) :::::::::::Not in science of course since Steve is not dedicated to "that". But Reed is not peak-human intellect thats Cap's stick, Reed's above peak-human. Thats what the SSS did do his Mind and Body stated by Dr.Erkstein and the hand-book for references, which you seem to ignore. Reed is above peak-human intellect bordering Super-Genius levels. But would not necassarily be above in Cap's field of expertise. Too different fields in which you are comparing its irrelevant. Reed borders on a Super-Genius in his field of study. Does not change the fact that Cap's mind is Peak-human by Hand-book and by statements.Sage99 23:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC) ::::::::::::Also to Add in Hand-book vol 3 #3 1991, Reed's Richards intelligence is classed "Superhuman" so of course he is smarter then Cap who is classed at Peak-Human intelligence. Still does not change the fact that Cap's intelligence is classed at Peak-human and mind is enhanced which you seem to ignore.Sage99 00:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC) ::(De-indenting for sanity) ::Reed Richard's intelligence might be classed as superhuman, but its what he was born with. He's peak human, because that intelligence is fully natural. He managed to design a space ship in 1961! He didn't go off into space and become brilliant in the solar flares, he already was brilliant. Genius is not beyond human, genius (super genius, or whatever you want to use to refer to such people) is peak human. ::Point being, Cap is no genius. Thus not peak human. (Cap also cannot compete intelligence-wise with Hank McCoy, Henry Pym, Tony Stark, Moira MacTaggert, or any of the other 'geniuses' in the marvel universe. These people are all in the ballpark of 'peak human', as none of them has specially enhanced intelligence - its all natural.) ::How is Cap smarter than anyone else? You have yet to cite one example of his enhanced _intelligence_. He has enhanced mental processing speed. I willingly grant that. However, thats not intelligence. Just like someone with eidetic memory is not necessarily highly intelligent - its a different measure of brain performance. Intelligence refers specifically to logic and reasoning skills - anyone at peak human intelligence in the marvel universe is on par with Albert Einstein or Richard Feynman. They can do things like actually understand quantum physics. --Squirrelloid 08:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC) ::: I did cite references your are just ignoring them. Hand-book stated intelligence is "peak-human level" to even the books in his origin which explains his abilities. Reed is above peak-human level mind. You just dont' want to accept it. He has many feats with martial art skills that surpass Reed, who has studied maritial arts in Judo, but pales in learning skill in martial arts compared to Captain America. Captain America even learned a futuristic fighting style on the first day, while other warriors it would take them "decades" to do so. Cap has outwitted Tony-Starks security systems to even figure out how to get out of advanced Scrull holding devices in vol 3. I bet you can't even cite this mental processing speed? While I have cited Peak-human intelligence. Cap has even mastered chi with his intellect, Reed who has studied martial arts isn't even in the ball park compared in learning it in comparison to Captain America.Sage99 09:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC) :::: Ok, first, your position that Reed is above peak-human is mind-boggling. Are you also asserting Hank McCoy, Tony Stark, Henry Pym, and Moira MacTaggert are all above peak-human? What the heck does "peak-human" mean if it is not, in fact, the highest attainable by a person without outside enhancement? ::::Martial arts training has little to do with intelligence (which i am defining as cognitive ability so this discussion can actually proceed). Martial arts are learned behaviors - the whole point of mastering a martial art is 'action without thought', you train your body to respond to certain situations in particular ways, and that response becomes automatic. There is a threshhold intelligence effect - Time spent to learn (the phase in which you break down and comprehend component parts of a particular move, as opposed to 'master' when you perfect it) is reduced up until a point - at some level of intelligence no additional speed is gained. This is because the complexity of martial arts are limited by the capabilities of the human body. Thus we know Cap is sufficiently smart to minimalize learning time. (I actually have direct experience with this kind of process - ballroom dance is identical to martial arts in terms of training goals. There is a learning and a mastery phase - the learning phase can be greatly reduced given a critical threshhold of intelligence, but additional intelligence beyond that isn't helpful. The mastery phase is muscle memory training, and intelligence has no impact on how long it takes a person to master a given move). ::::What your post does suggest is that Cap has almost instant mastery - which is fine, he's an athlete in peak condition with related experience, which certainly will shorten muscle memory training, especially for similar tasks. (Some of your claims about statements marvel has made are ridiculous on Marvel's part - no martial art can take decades to learn at a minimum. A dedicated practitioner should be able to master every move in the syllabus within a decade assuming they had no prior martial arts training, and the more experience they have with other martial arts, the faster mastery would be, because of synergistic interactions including things like identical moves (limited set of movements available to a humanoid body)). Now, Cap's ability to master things may exceed that of any athlete alive - Peak Human as it were, but this is not an intelligence effect, its a training and body conditioning effect. ::::So, an abstract measure of cognitive ability is to ask the basic question: "what's the most complicated idea person X could understand." These may range from simple (the rules to the game Baseball), moderate (reprogramming a VCR, using Linux), hard (multi-variate calculus), extremely hard (Quantum physics, understanding all the implications of Special Relativity mathematically and conceptually, String Theory), and bang your head into the wall hard (take any of extremely hard and be able to design a machine with practical applications based on that understanding within 24 hours). Reed is clearly in the last bracket. Moira MacTaggert et al. are certainly in the extremely hard bracket, and some of them might be pushing into the last one (like Henry Pym). Captain America is nowhere close - he's probably down at hard. Note this isn't a measure of what they currently understand, its a measure of what they could understand. However, most brilliant people tend to work in fields which require comprehension of complicated ideas. So while Moira may not actively understand quantum, she understands equivalently hard ideas and could understand quantum if she wanted to. (Obviously i've broken up a continuum into discreet chunks for ease of reference. The reality is a linear scale of complexity). --Squirrelloid 20:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC) :::Wrong there are old masters who have old decripted bodies such as Stick who have learnt far greater martial arts then most bording on mystical levels, also the fact that you think intelligence is hardly involved in martial-art or Warfare is mind-boggling. You think just because you have a fit body is enough, thats rather humerous? And yet Stick is a regular human does that, mean he is not bordering in class of Superhuman levels? There are some beings that can go beyond peak-human in the marvel universe despite not being Peak-human. Reed is an example of this in intellect as is Stick or Mantis for that matter. Does not change the fact that Captain America is still Peak-human in every aspect including intelligence which has been referenced in the hand-book, that I have given. Despite such regular humans being ahead of Cap. You have no reference that he is not Peak-human intellect. I do, Reed is above Peak-human intellect according to Marvel, its funny how you say no one can take decades to learn a martial art, coming from someone who bills Reed. You do know Reed has done things that know won can do in real life and making the comparison to real life is irrelevent especially since even learning martial arts can reach you bording God like levels in the Marvel-universe. Its called a suspenstion of disbelief. As to what Peak-human is, thats whatever Cap does, does not mean others can not be above it in certain traits or areas. Sage99 22:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC) ::::Perhaps you should try actually reading what i said. Learning a martial art does have an intelligence aspect. But there's a threshhold effect, and its not even especially high. Mastering a martial art is about muscle memory - being fit and previous experience with another martial art will both help with mastery (and previous experience can also shorten learning time). A fit body is by no means enough, but it helps because the muscles are effectively prepped to start acquiring muscle memory (you don't have to build the necessary tone). You can try to make what I said as ridiculous as you want, that doesn't make what I said ridiculous. ::::Look, Marvel can write whatever words they want, they're only true if they correspond to Marvel's reality. The reality is, i've named a bunch of people in the marvel universe much smarter than Cap (and we're talking at least an order of magnitude smarter) who have unenhanced intelligence beyond their natural human intelligence. He's not peak human by comparison - he doesn't even come close. Its not just Reed, its Moira MacTaggert, Tony Stark, Henry Pym, and so forth. If Cap is peak human, then no one without specially enhanced intelligence could be smarter than him. Otherwise that phrase is just without meaning. ::::Warfare - intelligence is involved in strategy. However, in a tactical situation, if you have to stop and think, you're dead. Thus intelligence takes a back seat and you're left with experience and learned-response. Expert tacticians are able to fit a given scenario into another close scenario they are familiar with, thus allowing them to utilize previous learned responses. That is something Cap can do, and its something that relies on speed of thought rather than generating new ideas on the fly (which takes time). ::::Look, this discussion is going nowhere. The bottom line is the phrase "Peak-Human" is meaningless if it doesn't mean he's the smartest non-enhanced person on earth. Period. Further, it gives people the wrong impression that he is actually that smart. I don't care if Joe Quesada himself told me in person that Cap is peak human - this is a claim that is verifiably false within the Marvel Universe, and I've presented plenty of examples to prove it. --Squirrelloid 08:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC) ::::Just checked the trading cards from when they used to rate people's stats. (This is like 1990ish). Cap rates a 3 for intelligence. Superhuman intelligence doesn't start until 6, 5 is 'peak-human' because its the highest non-superhuman intelligence. Also note that the Marvel website Captain America page never claims he has "peak-human intelligence", while claiming his physicals are all peak. I think that's pretty definitive. --Squirrelloid 09:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC) :::::Actually the marvel website does. Since it says this, "Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection. Captain America has a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed." Since it indeed references it along with strength,speed etc etc. Fact of the matter is Cap is peak human in all aspects in mind and body. I wouldn't be suprised if his spit was peak-human LOL. Others being above him in certain catergories takes nothing away from what Captain America is. Hand-book states he's peak-human intellect and so did his origin. Heck you do know there a regular human in the Marvel universe who was stronger then Captain America and his name is the KingPin Fisk. Who has held back Spiderman pure strength alone, and even opened his special designed door easier then a younger Spiderman at the time. Now Older Peter-Parker is stronger, but it takes away nothing that Cap is still Peak-human strength even if Kingpin a regular human has Superhuman strength.Sage99 16:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC) ::::::Let's try reading that quote more carefully. "Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection. Captain America has a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed." ::::::Note first, he's at the pinnacle of human _physical_ perfection. Not mental perfection, that would be Reed et al. That's your peak human reference, and its solely to the physical aspects. ::::::Note second that he has "very high" intelligence, i never disputed this. But he's not peak-human, and the marvel page nowhere says so. In addition to this high intelligence he has "agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed." Thats a separate clause, so his intelligence certainly isn't being compared to Olympic athletes (and in fact, that comparison is useless as a metric for intelligence anyway). ::::::So, all in all, we get told that he's slightly beyond the best human athletes who ever lived physically, and he's also smart. Not genius level smart (not even close), but still pretty smart. He's probably batting 130 on an IQ test. Pretty smart. Peak human? Thats somewhere around 250 or so. --Squirrelloid 04:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC) :::::::Looking back through the OHOTMU, both the newer and older versions, "Peak Human" isn't among the ratings used to rank a character's intelligence. Think about it for a second, someone's intelligence increased to the peak of human development. That would mean that he would be a certified genius in all areas of science. That would rank him alongside characters like Reed Richards, Doctor Doom, and Thanos. He's simply not that smart. He might be a "genius" when it comes to combat and tactical strategies. Historical characters like Alexander The Great and Julius Caesar were considered military "geniuses" but if they were asked to design and build and Iron Man-like suit of armor or follow the notes of Reed Richards' computations and theories, they'd be about a useful as a chimp performing brain surgery. Jack Hammer 01:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC) ::::::: Actually it is since in the Hand-book it states intellect for Cap and clasees it "Peak-human along with his other stats. Plus in the comic book Young Men 24 it states intellect is enhanced to a Super-Normal degree. Reed's intellect in science is above Peak-human as the regular human in strength Kingpin is above slightly in Peak-human strength as well. Plus in Military/combat/strategy I don't think Reed could surpass Cap in regards in that area if he tried. But both Reed being a regular human who's intellect is above peakhuman and Kingpin a regular human who's above the peak-human strength category according to his feats, doesn't take away what Captain America is.Sage99 05:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC) ::::::::Look, here's the bottom line. Marvel uses a 7 point scale. Cap is a 3 for intelligence. Normal humans go up to 5 (anything higher than 5 is considered superhuman). Thus 5 is peak-human, which Cap is not. End of story. ::::::::Furthermore, their site describes him as being smart, and then as being better than top Olympic athletes physically. Lots of people are smart. Many people are geniuses (Cap is not). Clearly not peak human according to anything vaguely current i can find. --Squirrelloid 06:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC) ::::::::: Bottom line is your ignoring other handbooks that say intellect peak human and your ignoring Operation Rebirth which states intellect Super-Normal. Plus your ignoring that a regular Human Kingpin is stronger then Captain America despite, Cap having Peak-human strength. Cap is peak-human in all stats that was his whole point for Operation-rebirth.Sage99 17:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC) :::::::::Furthermore Cap's intellect being peakhuman is Story-continuity which is>>>>>>>>>>>then hand-books. If you look at current handbooks its stated Cap's strength is able to lift twice his own body weight. Which is false considering his story-feats and previous hand-books as well. Plus Marvel site stated intellegence along with stats. Plus Marvel site is just like this site and can be changed by the fans, another bottom line story states intellect is peakhuman.Sage99 17:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC) ::(More de-indenting) Sage, you're being ridiculous. Your inability to read the Marvel.com quote leads me to believe you are reading far more into the Handbook than is actually there. Marvel has repeatedly published scales along which their characters are rated for attributes like strength, intelligence, etc... They have even provided guidelines for understanding these. Cap has consistently rated a 3 (or equivalent) for intelligence in the Marvel Superheroes RPG (actual rating is EX (20) - equivalent to a 3), the trading cards (In *each* set I am aware of that had such stats - there were at least 2), and in other publications. 5 is the highest non-superhuman intelligence rating. ::Its quite possible the serum increased his intelligence. 3 isn't stupid - its actually quite bright. (Log scales are like that). Its not just that one human is smarter than Cap, its that I could make a list of 30 or 40 without trying too hard who are smarter than cap, and *provably don't have enhanced intelligence*. One is an abnormality of scripting between two different comics that rarely intersect (Kingpin being a Spiderman and Daredevil villain primarily), 40 is a definitive trend. ::There is no story continuity for which Cap needs to be "peak intelligence" that I am aware of. He's smart, but nothing requires him to be that smart. And even if he was originally introduced as being "Peak Intelligence" in 1940, that has clearly been retconned by the way the character has been written since then. The only story that could require him to be peak intelligence is one in which he actually demonstrates superior intelligence over Reed or one of the other brilliant Marvel characters. No such story exists to the best of my knowledge. --Squirrelloid 18:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC) ::For comparison, Captain America has Reason EX(20). This is actually the equal of Doctor Pym (weird), Cyclops, and Black Tom Cassidy (to give some examples). However, Doctor Doom is AM(50), Baron Zemo is IN(40), and both Arcade and Cypher (Douglas Ramsey) are RM(30). And that's just out of the A-D MU Gamer's Handbook. --Squirrelloid 19:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC) ::: Cap v1 # 1 references his enhanced mind, as does Cap v1 #59 also restates enhanced mind to a "Super"-normal degree. And now for the most further update in Priests Run Cap Mythos it states Cap's "augmented mind" as he soaked in knowledge past down from 1000 of years of warfare.Sage ::::Wow, this conversation has been going a long time. I'd say it's worth mentioning in his powers or abilities. (Probably abilities). :) ::::--Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 13:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC) :::::Here's also something worth mentioning on Cap's senses. Cap vol 4 #12 after he woke up from the suspended ice. Quote: "And then he is back in the world again. Enhanced tissue rebuilding. Enhanced cells regenerating. Enhanced hearing vibrating." Showing that the SSS even enhanced him down to every cell as well.EndQuote:Sage ::::::Ok here on his immunity as Cap states in two different references "he can't get drunk.". Stated in both Cap v4 27 and Cap v5 16. I tried to link the scans but they don't link and just show up directly here, which takes to much space. Sage 13:53, 21 December 2008 (UTC) Order The order has like been fixed to be screwed up. The first 2 sections of the history is before the contents, and when I added the summary, it placed it on the very top, before the "other uses" template. Can someone fix that, please? --SuperFlash101 20:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC) :Fixed! :) :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 21:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC) Actually, no, it's not. There's still 3 sections ABOVE the "contents" thing, and the summary is not supposed to be in the history section or any section, just on the very top. --SuperFlash101 02:53, 1 December 2008 (UTC) Page Blocked Okay, I didn't want to step in here but this has been going on for too long. We seem to have an editing war going on. Jack, Sage, let's talk about this.--Max 06:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC) Cap's weight in the Avengers handbook that Captain America weighs about 220 lbs in the Avengers handbook User:Hulkgod45 :But, in the All-New OHOTMU A-Z that Marvel began putting out in 2006 and in the All-New OHOTMU A-Z Hardback editions that Marvel began putting out in 2008, Cap's weight is listed at 240 lbs. Jack Hammer 22:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC) Tales of Suspence more canon that Captain America Comics??? Just a question... I remember in about the last 50 issues of Tales of Suspence, Stan Lee went and retold Cap's history and when the series ended, it changed it's name to Captain America which started at #100 (Or 110, I forget...). So, would that make the last 50 issues of "Tales of Suspence" be more canon than the original Captain America Comics? I could be wrong. I only own the issue that presents Cap's origin (I beleive that was ToS#63 http://marvel.wikia.com/Tales_of_Suspense_63). J. A. R. Head 23:42, December 28, 2009 (UTC) :You'd have to be more specific about the changes Stan made to Cap's original history. Honestly, the story has been re-told so many times from so many perspectives, there are only a few common threads which seem to continue to be true. :The way Marvel usually gets around the 'canon vs non-cannon' debate is by saying certain stories happened in alternate realities or timelines. Without knowing which history changes you're referencing, it's hard to say if they're actual 616 history or not. :Another popular way to explain differences between two writers' versions of the same story is to say that the story is being told from different perspectives. Since different people experience and remember the same events differently, it's likely that two people who were present at the same event would have substantially different interpretations of what actually happened. :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 05:42, December 30, 2009 (UTC) Obviously, it's not that hard since I did say "Tales of Suspence". I'm talking the series that ended at issue #100 and then changed it's title to "Captain America" starting with #101. Didn't Stand Lee go back and retold Cap's history in Tales of Suspence before he changed the title? I could be wrong. I only own one issue, Tales of Suspence#63 (1965) and it goes back over his origin. Do any of the other issues go over his 1940's years? Also, would the NEWEST "Captain America Comics" (The ones published for Marvel's aniversary this past year) canon? J. A. R. Head 23:12, January 11, 2010 (UTC) :MOST of those Tales of Suspense issues told new stories of Cap in the modern era. And, as far as I'm aware, all but a couple of the 70th Anniversary stories are canon as far as Earth-616 is concerned. Technically, everything printed is canon to some degree or in some reality. Certain things get retconned or changed to "someone's mistaken" (like Bucky's death), but most things stay canon. :--GrnMarvl14 23:20, January 11, 2010 (UTC)